In the first part of a series of episodes about medical malpractice litigation, Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D. talks about nurses sitting for deposition, in particular, the LPN, and the importance of the initial meeting and communication with these nurses. These lower-level nurses often struggle at deposition due to their nervousness about the process, fear of the ramifications, potential blame issues, etc. It's critical to meet with these nurses as soon as possible, checking in with them, seeing how they are doing, and demonstrating that you care about them as a person. Bill discusses how crucial the initial assessment of their mental, physical, and emotional state is before any prep for the deposition starts. Also, it is important to ask them difficult questions about their job, including whether there have been issues at work previously, whether they blame anyone else for the incident at the heart of the case, and their specifics memories of what took place. Lastly, Bill talks about getting their commitment to work with you to prepare for their deposition.
Episode 199 – Med Mal Series part 1 – Nurse Depositions (LPNs)
00:00:15.676 --> 00:00:21.416
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Welcome to another edition of The Litigation Psychology Podcast, brought to you by Courtroom Sciences.
00:00:23.516 --> 00:00:24.236
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I am Dr. Bill Kanasky.
00:00:27.616 --> 00:00:28.696
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>How's it going?
00:00:30.036 --> 00:00:33.036
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Yeah, 2024.
00:00:34.376 --> 00:00:43.056
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And we're gonna do a MedMal series, a series of podcasts really focusing on healthcare litigation, MedMal litigation.
00:00:44.336 --> 00:00:47.896
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Got some great guests, some panelists coming on, so I'll be good.
00:00:47.916 --> 00:00:49.236
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And there's a lot to talk about.
00:00:49.256 --> 00:01:06.216
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And I really wanted to isolate some of the stuff, because I think particularly with witness testimony, you got a wider array of witnesses when you're in the healthcare arena.
00:01:06.736 --> 00:01:17.556
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You've got your cardiothoracic and brain surgeons, all the way down to the LPN nurse, allied healthcare professionals.
00:01:17.936 --> 00:01:19.636
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>These are very, very different people.
00:01:20.656 --> 00:01:23.916
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>When they sit for deposition, those depositions are going to be very important.
00:01:24.916 --> 00:01:32.756
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And I think some of the things that they have in common is, for the most part, these are very caring people.
00:01:33.756 --> 00:01:40.336
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They got into a helping profession, and they care about their patients.
00:01:41.816 --> 00:02:01.936
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>The problem is when you take somebody that's in a helping profession and you put them in a litigation legal environment, it's very difficult for them to communicate effectively, because their work, communication, skills, often get in the way of effective testimony.
00:02:02.736 --> 00:02:10.116
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>So what I want to focus on today is the nurses.
00:02:10.116 --> 00:02:13.436
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I want to talk about nurses, nurses sitting for deposition.
00:02:14.496 --> 00:02:23.256
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And I want to start, I want to really focus today on that LPN, that nursing assistant.
00:02:23.956 --> 00:02:27.236
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And with these other podcasts, we'll work our way up the chain.
00:02:28.496 --> 00:02:39.776
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>These, for lack of a better term, these kind of lower-level nurses oftentimes get deposed.
00:02:40.156 --> 00:02:43.556
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They have a very, very important role in the healthcare system.
00:02:44.356 --> 00:02:59.056
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They are, they're assisting higher-level nurses, they're assisting MSNs, they're assisting nurse practitioners who have much higher levels of training.
00:03:00.676 --> 00:03:08.176
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And oftentimes, these particular types of nurses, the LPNs, they're doing a lot of dirty work.
00:03:08.976 --> 00:03:13.716
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They're doing a lot of the work that you and I could not do.
00:03:15.416 --> 00:03:25.796
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And oftentimes, in my experience, I've worked with thousands of these folks at this point over a 20-year period.
00:03:27.516 --> 00:03:36.836
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And a couple of things in common that they have, number one, they often feel unappreciated because they're doing all the dirty work.
00:03:36.856 --> 00:03:38.456
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They're doing all the work that no one else wants to do.
00:03:39.756 --> 00:03:41.776
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They feel like they're not compensated very well.
00:03:44.836 --> 00:03:53.996
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And when they come into the deposition environment, they're oftentimes very scared, very fearful.
00:03:56.736 --> 00:03:59.156
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Sometimes think that they're going to lose their job.
00:04:03.496 --> 00:04:11.496
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Sometimes fearing that if they don't do well at their deposition, something bad is going to happen, they're going to get punished at work.
00:04:12.936 --> 00:04:15.496
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Or there's going to be a reputational issue.
00:04:16.096 --> 00:04:25.016
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Deposition is not easy, but particularly for these folks, who again, play this huge, important key role in our healthcare system.
00:04:26.236 --> 00:04:33.956
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Again, doing jobs, none of us are probably capable of doing.
00:04:33.976 --> 00:04:50.496
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>When my, many of you know, my mom passed on Memorial Day last year, and then a couple years before that, her mom, my grandmother, who's my best friend in the world, passed.
00:04:51.436 --> 00:04:58.856
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And interacting with these types of nurses, I mean, they spend the most time with these patients.
00:04:59.856 --> 00:05:08.556
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They do, you know, they're putting people on bedpans, they're cleaning up afterwards, right?
00:05:08.796 --> 00:05:13.796
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>These are really, really difficult jobs, and they're so important jobs.
00:05:13.956 --> 00:05:24.096
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And to treat patients, you know, in tough situations with dignity, hats off to these folks.
00:05:25.056 --> 00:05:30.196
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>But the problem we have is that when there's a med mal lawsuit, oftentimes they're going to get the post.
00:05:30.816 --> 00:05:37.676
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And so how do you deal with one of these types of nurses?
00:05:38.476 --> 00:05:40.796
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>So attorneys, you know, you're obviously going to meet with them.
00:05:41.516 --> 00:05:44.056
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I find that they come in with a lot of reluctance.
00:05:44.056 --> 00:05:45.196
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Again, they're scared.
00:05:46.696 --> 00:05:58.736
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I think there's a lot of finger pointing types of pressures with these nurses because they're on the lower end of the decision making chain.
00:06:00.056 --> 00:06:04.856
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And there are a lot of fight or flight, you know, decision making patterns with these nurses.
00:06:06.176 --> 00:06:08.876
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>So what do you do?
00:06:08.996 --> 00:06:10.496
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Well, a couple of suggestions.
00:06:11.636 --> 00:06:14.696
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Number one, I think it's important.
00:06:14.716 --> 00:06:21.076
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>This is with any nurse, but particularly these is you want to meet with them as soon as humanly possible.
00:06:21.096 --> 00:06:34.596
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You know, once the lawsuit is filed, once word spreads, once they figure out they're going to have to be deposed, it's going to be stressful.
00:06:36.996 --> 00:06:41.956
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And the sooner that you can talk to these folks, many of them have never been deposed before.
00:06:43.536 --> 00:06:43.956
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Dr.
00:06:43.976 --> 00:06:51.576
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Steve Wood and I wrote that paper on the 13 Cognitive Distortions, how your mind messes with you.
00:06:53.676 --> 00:06:56.576
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>These witnesses will have a lot of those.
00:06:56.596 --> 00:06:58.436
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They will catastrophize.
00:06:59.176 --> 00:07:04.096
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They will engage in a lot of biological thinking out of fear.
00:07:04.116 --> 00:07:04.616
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They're scared.
00:07:05.296 --> 00:07:16.776
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And so getting to them as early as possible, talking to them, getting their side of the story, but also seeing how they're doing, what their thought patterns are.
00:07:16.796 --> 00:07:20.356
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I think that's one thing where attorneys struggle.
00:07:21.176 --> 00:07:38.736
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Defense attorneys, you really struggle with this, is that you talk to your witnesses about the lawsuit, about the events, about the medical records, and you don't spend enough time talking to these people as human beings.
00:07:40.376 --> 00:07:41.196
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You really don't.
00:07:42.356 --> 00:07:43.436
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You really, really don't.
00:07:43.556 --> 00:07:55.776
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And I know this for a fact, because when I come in on these cases, during one of the breaks, oftentimes a nurse pulls me aside and says, you're the first person that's asked me, how am I feeling?
00:07:55.796 --> 00:07:56.616
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>How am I doing?
00:07:56.936 --> 00:07:58.116
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>How am I sleeping?
00:08:01.316 --> 00:08:04.656
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Am I skipping meals, because I'm so goddamn nervous?
00:08:06.976 --> 00:08:20.536
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>These are important issues that can drastically impact the quality of the testimony, because a lot of, well, number one, listen, half of this country has mental health issues, whether diagnosed or undiagnosed.
00:08:22.576 --> 00:08:34.976
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And these nurses will be in the, you have to, and yes, it's going to be an armchair assessment by the attorney, but you have to ask them how they're doing, because probably no one has.
00:08:36.436 --> 00:08:44.716
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And if they're scared, if they're fearful, number one, you asking about that is going to make them feel a hell of a lot better.
00:08:46.056 --> 00:08:50.036
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You're going to find things otherwise you wouldn't have found, just because you asked.
00:08:51.896 --> 00:08:56.956
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Number two, showing that you care, that you care about them.
00:08:56.976 --> 00:09:07.556
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>See, defense counsel, if you come in caring about the lawsuit, and caring about defending your client, yeah, that's really important, but you got to care about the witness.
00:09:08.476 --> 00:09:12.896
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You got to care about the human being, the person going through this.
00:09:13.696 --> 00:09:17.776
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Okay, this is going to build trust.
00:09:17.796 --> 00:09:20.656
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Okay, this is going to build trust.
00:09:20.896 --> 00:09:22.176
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They're going to open up to you.
00:09:22.416 --> 00:09:24.136
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They're going to be more honest with you.
00:09:25.856 --> 00:09:28.876
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Versus jumping into the page 15 of the medical record.
00:09:30.736 --> 00:09:31.056
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Right?
00:09:33.176 --> 00:09:39.956
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Lack of trust between witnesses and attorneys is very, very common.
00:09:41.456 --> 00:09:45.696
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Because health care professionals, by the way, most people, they don't trust attorneys.
00:09:45.716 --> 00:09:46.636
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They don't like attorneys.
00:09:46.656 --> 00:09:48.056
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They don't like anything illegal.
00:09:48.516 --> 00:09:49.736
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Anything illegal is stressful.
00:09:50.936 --> 00:09:52.596
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And so they're already nervous.
00:09:53.816 --> 00:09:55.236
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>It's kind of like going to the dentist.
00:10:00.456 --> 00:10:02.296
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Nobody goes to the dentist with a smile.
00:10:03.956 --> 00:10:04.356
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Nobody.
00:10:05.476 --> 00:10:11.376
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And nobody goes to a meeting with the hospital attorney with a smile either.
00:10:11.396 --> 00:10:13.676
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>There's a lot of fear involved.
00:10:14.116 --> 00:10:21.656
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>So addressing these issues early, talking to them as a human being, really checking on them how they are doing.
00:10:23.436 --> 00:10:24.356
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Very, very important.
00:10:24.376 --> 00:10:25.536
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>How they're doing emotionally.
00:10:26.096 --> 00:10:26.496
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Okay?
00:10:26.796 --> 00:10:28.296
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Some of these witnesses will come in.
00:10:28.316 --> 00:10:30.236
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Again, they'll be scared to death.
00:10:30.996 --> 00:10:32.336
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They'll be scared to death.
00:10:33.396 --> 00:10:35.076
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And you can address some of those issues.
00:10:35.436 --> 00:10:37.296
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Lots of times, that's a logical thinking.
00:10:37.316 --> 00:10:37.396
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Right?
00:10:37.556 --> 00:10:38.676
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I'm losing my job.
00:10:38.896 --> 00:10:41.896
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I'm losing my nursing certification or license.
00:10:42.716 --> 00:10:43.316
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>No, you're not.
00:10:44.996 --> 00:10:46.476
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Happens all the time.
00:10:46.996 --> 00:10:47.916
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Or they're on the other end.
00:10:49.656 --> 00:10:51.956
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They are epically pissed off.
00:10:53.356 --> 00:10:53.676
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Right?
00:10:53.716 --> 00:10:54.596
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And they come in hot.
00:10:56.856 --> 00:10:57.676
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They come in hot.
00:10:57.736 --> 00:10:58.636
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Running in the red.
00:11:00.596 --> 00:11:01.576
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I'm running in the red.
00:11:02.716 --> 00:11:03.256
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>What movie?
00:11:03.436 --> 00:11:03.936
<v SPEAKER_2>What movie?
00:11:06.756 --> 00:11:07.356
<v SPEAKER_2>Pulp Fiction?
00:11:08.976 --> 00:11:09.916
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Vincent Vega?
00:11:10.096 --> 00:11:10.776
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>John Travolta?
00:11:11.956 --> 00:11:13.056
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Yeah, they're running in the red.
00:11:13.076 --> 00:11:13.496
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They're pissed.
00:11:14.256 --> 00:11:16.356
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Well, you need to ask about that stuff.
00:11:16.376 --> 00:11:24.356
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>So the first question I ask every nurse, actually every witness, but particularly for these nurses, I'm just going to tell you what I do.
00:11:25.076 --> 00:11:26.836
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And you're more than welcome to copy.
00:11:27.836 --> 00:11:36.636
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>As I ask, I tell them, I say, hey, listen, every nurse I work with comes into this process with some type of emotional reaction.
00:11:36.656 --> 00:11:38.676
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I go, some people come in, they're scared to death.
00:11:39.636 --> 00:11:41.956
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They can't sleep, they can't eat, they're worried.
00:11:43.236 --> 00:11:45.236
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Other nurses come in, and boy, they're mad.
00:11:46.276 --> 00:11:46.976
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They're mad.
00:11:48.636 --> 00:11:49.396
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They're upset.
00:11:50.956 --> 00:11:51.636
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They're angry.
00:11:51.656 --> 00:11:56.976
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And then some people come in, and they just don't give a shit whatsoever.
00:11:56.996 --> 00:11:58.116
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They're completely indifferent.
00:11:59.416 --> 00:12:02.516
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And I say, which category of the three do you fit into?
00:12:03.616 --> 00:12:13.236
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I start every single witness training like that, with every witness, but particularly nurses and these lower level nurses.
00:12:14.516 --> 00:12:21.896
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And every single time, they immediately open up, tell me which category they're in and why.
00:12:23.036 --> 00:12:25.196
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And it's very therapeutic to them.
00:12:26.736 --> 00:12:38.336
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>So Defense Council, take that, it could be 15 minutes, early on, to ask that very question, number one.
00:12:39.696 --> 00:12:59.996
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Another issue I see with these types of witnesses specifically, relative to your high level nurses, your physicians, your specialty surgeons, an issue that pops up here, so this is the second thing that you're going to ask them.
00:13:00.296 --> 00:13:01.896
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Very, very, very important.
00:13:01.916 --> 00:13:16.576
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You're going to ask them, is there anything else going on in your life that is causing you stress right now that may impact your ability to prepare for this deposition?
00:13:18.876 --> 00:13:31.316
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I asked that question, holy shit, you'd be amazed of the stuff that comes out, that otherwise you would have never known about, that can torpedo this witness's deposition.
00:13:32.336 --> 00:13:42.956
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Things like, my husband just lost his job, or we're going through a bankruptcy, or I've gotten this one a lot.
00:13:43.496 --> 00:13:48.876
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I have a sick family member, I have a family member that has cancer.
00:13:48.896 --> 00:13:52.536
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>It's really dragging me down.
00:13:54.716 --> 00:14:02.856
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Or related to that, I have a sick family member, usually a parent, that I'm helping, I'm a caregiver.
00:14:03.316 --> 00:14:08.256
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>When I'm not working at the hospital, I'm home taking care of my mom or my dad.
00:14:09.156 --> 00:14:10.076
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They're elderly.
00:14:14.316 --> 00:14:19.856
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Have you been on that road?
00:14:19.936 --> 00:14:20.736
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Yeah, not easy.
00:14:21.336 --> 00:14:23.136
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>It will suck the life out of you.
00:14:25.656 --> 00:14:28.516
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Suck the energy out of you, wear you down.
00:14:30.116 --> 00:14:31.616
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Well, how do you know if they have that problem?
00:14:31.636 --> 00:14:33.156
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Well, if you don't ask, you're not going to know.
00:14:35.796 --> 00:14:38.756
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I've worked with nurses that are currently going through a divorce.
00:14:38.776 --> 00:14:39.556
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>That's nasty.
00:14:41.856 --> 00:14:59.616
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I've had nurses that have children with autism, other developmental problems, very, very stressful, educational issues, getting in trouble at school, drug use.
00:15:03.336 --> 00:15:04.696
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Hey, listen, life sucks.
00:15:05.576 --> 00:15:06.716
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Life is hard, right?
00:15:06.736 --> 00:15:07.816
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Who came up with it, right?
00:15:07.836 --> 00:15:10.516
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Life's a bitch, and then you die, right?
00:15:11.236 --> 00:15:14.756
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>There's a reason these phrases have been around for a long time.
00:15:14.776 --> 00:15:15.896
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>It's not easy, folks.
00:15:17.516 --> 00:15:22.396
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And you have to figure out what's going on with your witnesses.
00:15:23.756 --> 00:15:27.236
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>So you have to ask these questions, figure out what else is going on in their lives.
00:15:30.816 --> 00:15:46.536
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Now, once you figure all that out, and you know what you're dealing with, okay, again, the next question, remember, so first you have to assess, and then you have to figure, okay, how can I prevent this from getting worse?
00:15:46.716 --> 00:15:52.656
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>So if you find something, kind of the third issue is, what are you doing to help this situation?
00:15:56.176 --> 00:15:58.556
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Okay, oh, back to another thing.
00:15:59.096 --> 00:16:01.696
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Many of these nurses are not the healthiest people on the planet.
00:16:02.776 --> 00:16:15.076
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They may be struggling with diabetes or high blood pressure, some kind of, you know, chronic illness, pain.
00:16:15.836 --> 00:16:17.596
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>It's another thing you got to ask about, right?
00:16:17.736 --> 00:16:30.296
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>So then once you figure it out, so really talk about witness assessment here and why it's so important with these nurses, is you have to next then go, okay, what are you doing to address this problem?
00:16:30.776 --> 00:16:32.036
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Are you going to the doctor?
00:16:32.256 --> 00:16:33.956
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Are you going to physical therapy?
00:16:34.696 --> 00:16:37.196
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Are you going to a therapist, a counselor?
00:16:39.276 --> 00:16:40.156
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>What are you doing?
00:16:41.936 --> 00:16:42.896
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Are you exercising?
00:16:42.916 --> 00:16:43.716
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Are you eating right?
00:16:44.836 --> 00:16:52.276
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Now, at this point in the podcast, every defense attorney out there is like, I need to sign up for this.
00:16:52.576 --> 00:16:53.436
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I'm an attorney.
00:16:54.736 --> 00:16:56.936
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Okay, and I know that.
00:16:57.336 --> 00:17:05.996
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>But the issue is, and the issue why I'm the busiest guy on the planet, and why I do this so often is because these are real issues.
00:17:06.316 --> 00:17:10.116
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Attorneys, I know you can't hire me on every case, and I don't want you to, I don't expect you to.
00:17:12.076 --> 00:17:31.616
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>But on many of these cases, you can make a huge difference as the attorney by learning how to ask these important questions of your witnesses, showing some empathy, and at least nudging them to take some action to get on the right track.
00:17:34.476 --> 00:17:35.896
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Is it a self-help intervention?
00:17:37.716 --> 00:17:39.096
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Is it going to see a professional?
00:17:40.436 --> 00:17:45.216
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>So everything I just talked about, that could take 15 to 30 minutes.
00:17:46.656 --> 00:17:51.716
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>It's crucial that you have answers to those questions to figure out what you're dealing with.
00:17:53.416 --> 00:18:00.156
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Because if you do it the old-fashioned way and just jump right into the case, you haven't addressed any of those things.
00:18:00.176 --> 00:18:11.936
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>When that person gets deposed and starts getting pushed by a really competent or aggressive plaintiff attorney, all this bad stuff is going to come out.
00:18:13.496 --> 00:18:14.836
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And it's going to affect their mood.
00:18:14.856 --> 00:18:16.416
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>It's going to affect their emotional stats.
00:18:16.436 --> 00:18:17.676
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>It's going to affect their answers.
00:18:18.936 --> 00:18:20.336
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They're going to wear down faster.
00:18:23.296 --> 00:18:27.456
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>So we can solve a lot of problems by assessing appropriately.
00:18:28.856 --> 00:18:32.936
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>But in particular, these types of nurses tend to have issues.
00:18:35.896 --> 00:18:37.536
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They tend to have other things going on.
00:18:37.696 --> 00:18:39.216
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>That's my experience.
00:18:40.236 --> 00:18:41.456
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>That is just my experience.
00:18:41.796 --> 00:18:42.116
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Okay.
00:18:42.136 --> 00:18:43.036
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Don't shoot the messenger.
00:18:43.856 --> 00:18:51.536
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>So knowing that, once you get that information, you know what you're dealing with, now you're going to jump into the case, right?
00:18:52.616 --> 00:19:06.816
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>So these lower level nurses may not have a ton of charting responsibilities, like say your RNs, your BSNs, your MSNs, your nurse practitioners.
00:19:08.856 --> 00:19:11.956
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>However, they have huge responsibilities.
00:19:13.836 --> 00:19:18.896
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And so then you have to talk about the case, and you want to gauge their memory.
00:19:19.816 --> 00:19:21.476
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You know, what do they really remember?
00:19:22.216 --> 00:19:22.616
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Right?
00:19:23.936 --> 00:19:26.896
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You want to ask them about their job duties and responsibilities.
00:19:28.016 --> 00:19:30.576
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Kind of get a sense for what their role is.
00:19:33.296 --> 00:19:35.156
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Now, another important question here.
00:19:35.176 --> 00:19:36.036
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>This is really important.
00:19:36.056 --> 00:19:38.396
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And you have to remind them of attorney-client privilege.
00:19:39.676 --> 00:19:42.136
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>So now, you've done this assessment.
00:19:42.576 --> 00:19:47.876
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>By the way, that's going to help them trust you more and open up to you more.
00:19:48.696 --> 00:19:53.016
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And you need that when you start talking about the case, because witnesses will lie to you.
00:19:53.036 --> 00:19:55.816
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And you're like, I'm the attorney.
00:19:55.836 --> 00:19:56.956
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They're not going to lie to me.
00:19:56.976 --> 00:19:57.936
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Yes, they will.
00:19:57.956 --> 00:20:01.156
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Because they're scared and they're defensive.
00:20:02.176 --> 00:20:03.336
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Do this good assessment.
00:20:03.356 --> 00:20:04.976
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>15 to 30 minutes we're talking about.
00:20:05.136 --> 00:20:06.656
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They will trust you and open up to you.
00:20:06.776 --> 00:20:10.576
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And now you have to say, all right, we have attorney-client privilege.
00:20:10.596 --> 00:20:12.576
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>This is completely confidential, protected.
00:20:13.376 --> 00:20:14.616
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Tell me about your job.
00:20:17.056 --> 00:20:17.676
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>What do you like?
00:20:17.736 --> 00:20:18.576
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>What do you don't like?
00:20:19.516 --> 00:20:21.076
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Are there issues you have?
00:20:21.096 --> 00:20:23.016
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Do you have an xtragride at work?
00:20:23.796 --> 00:20:25.436
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Trust me, these nurses always do.
00:20:27.896 --> 00:20:32.576
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>What other nurses do you not get along with and you think don't do their jobs well?
00:20:34.356 --> 00:20:35.676
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>What's wrong with the system?
00:20:35.696 --> 00:20:39.316
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>What do you not like about the hospital or the nursing home or whatever?
00:20:40.376 --> 00:20:42.076
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Get them to dump stuff on you.
00:20:42.656 --> 00:20:43.356
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Let them vent.
00:20:43.956 --> 00:20:44.656
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Let them vent.
00:20:44.676 --> 00:20:47.756
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Because if you don't, they're going to vent to the plaintiff attorney.
00:20:50.476 --> 00:20:51.576
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Hi, plaintiff attorneys.
00:20:52.916 --> 00:20:53.696
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I know you're out there.
00:20:55.996 --> 00:20:59.796
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>By the way, as an aside, I try to be balanced here.
00:21:00.196 --> 00:21:04.496
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Plaintiff attorneys, you need to do the same thing with your witnesses.
00:21:07.256 --> 00:21:08.716
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Because it's stressful for them too.
00:21:08.736 --> 00:21:13.336
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>So everything I just said, plaintiff attorneys, you can do all that with your witness too.
00:21:13.796 --> 00:21:14.756
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And that's important.
00:21:16.876 --> 00:21:18.376
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Not all plaintiffs are bad people.
00:21:19.196 --> 00:21:20.516
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Plaintiffs have emotions.
00:21:21.276 --> 00:21:22.676
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They're going through all this stuff too.
00:21:23.996 --> 00:21:24.776
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Legitimately.
00:21:25.656 --> 00:21:28.196
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>So, plaintiff attorneys, you need to assess your witnesses better too.
00:21:28.576 --> 00:21:28.856
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>See?
00:21:29.916 --> 00:21:30.556
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Balanced.
00:21:30.576 --> 00:21:33.156
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Balanced here on The Litigation Psychology Podcast.
00:21:37.156 --> 00:21:40.156
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>So you need to get these people to vent.
00:21:44.056 --> 00:21:46.496
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>What are the thorns in their sides at work?
00:21:47.916 --> 00:21:49.136
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Very, very important.
00:21:49.156 --> 00:21:52.596
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Because those are going to come out in the depth, I'm telling you.
00:21:53.336 --> 00:21:56.456
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And you want to get a hold of those and figure out what's going on.
00:21:56.816 --> 00:21:57.276
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Okay?
00:21:57.936 --> 00:21:59.516
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Before you start talking about their testimony.
00:22:00.376 --> 00:22:00.856
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>All right.
00:22:01.816 --> 00:22:04.336
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Ask them about, you know, have you been in trouble before?
00:22:04.356 --> 00:22:05.276
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Have you been disciplined?
00:22:05.296 --> 00:22:05.516
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Right?
00:22:06.676 --> 00:22:06.976
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Right?
00:22:07.096 --> 00:22:11.676
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>If you have a nurse that's been disciplined before, probably has a chip on her shoulder or his shoulder.
00:22:12.856 --> 00:22:15.096
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You better find that chip, that thorn in their side.
00:22:15.116 --> 00:22:19.396
<v SPEAKER_2>Because that's going to tell you a lot.
00:22:23.436 --> 00:22:25.036
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>That's going to tell you a lot.
00:22:25.056 --> 00:22:26.016
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>All right.
00:22:26.036 --> 00:22:27.016
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>But it's all about trust.
00:22:27.176 --> 00:22:30.816
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They're not going to tell you this stuff if they don't trust you.
00:22:32.136 --> 00:22:34.416
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They're not going to open up if they don't trust you.
00:22:34.696 --> 00:22:43.916
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>If they don't think you give a shit about them and you're just the hospital attorney, it's not going to work.
00:22:45.056 --> 00:22:49.176
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And again, I know we're talking about nurses and med mal as part of our med mal series.
00:22:49.556 --> 00:22:56.256
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>But folks, if you're listening and you don't do med mal work, you do product liability or you do transportation, it's the same shit.
00:22:57.716 --> 00:22:59.556
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You have to do the same thing with your truck driver.
00:23:03.256 --> 00:23:06.676
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Same thing with your company employees on the product liability case.
00:23:08.656 --> 00:23:09.376
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>It's the same thing.
00:23:11.396 --> 00:23:18.116
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Then, once you get more into the case, talk to them about their memory of their events.
00:23:19.136 --> 00:23:27.156
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Talk to them about the importance of not pointing fingers.
00:23:27.716 --> 00:23:37.936
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>A lot of finger pointing, like the lower you go, I mean, finger pointing can happen at any level, but at this particular level, I see a lot of finger pointing because they're scared.
00:23:39.036 --> 00:23:39.896
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Because they're scared.
00:23:40.596 --> 00:23:41.956
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And they don't want to get in trouble.
00:23:42.576 --> 00:23:51.116
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And kind of like, you know, memory as a parent or when you were a child and you get busted doing something, Johnny did it.
00:23:51.416 --> 00:23:52.916
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I mean, that's what we do.
00:23:54.036 --> 00:23:54.356
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Right?
00:23:54.676 --> 00:23:55.656
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Who dented the car?
00:23:55.676 --> 00:23:56.356
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Johnny did it.
00:23:58.276 --> 00:23:59.536
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>My sister and I are growing.
00:23:59.556 --> 00:24:00.436
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>My mom would come home.
00:24:05.036 --> 00:24:05.896
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Who broke the vase?
00:24:06.096 --> 00:24:06.776
<v SPEAKER_2>Nikki did it.
00:24:07.136 --> 00:24:07.996
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I blame my sister.
00:24:09.776 --> 00:24:10.376
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>She blamed me.
00:24:12.576 --> 00:24:17.836
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>That's how that's what that's the natural reaction of people do when there's blame to go around.
00:24:19.416 --> 00:24:20.136
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And then a lot.
00:24:20.156 --> 00:24:23.216
<v SPEAKER_2>So that's pretty, you know, significant blame.
00:24:23.236 --> 00:24:25.576
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>So you gotta get to the bottom of all this.
00:24:26.696 --> 00:24:32.336
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And then really, again, get their commitment, right?
00:24:32.636 --> 00:24:40.476
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>After you go through this case and stuff like that, once you're going to end this, you got to get their commitment to work with you going forward.
00:24:41.836 --> 00:24:42.936
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And say, OK, listen.
00:24:43.896 --> 00:24:44.356
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>All right.
00:24:44.376 --> 00:24:46.376
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You know, you've done your assessment.
00:24:46.396 --> 00:24:46.896
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You've talked.
00:24:46.916 --> 00:24:48.136
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You've talked about their job.
00:24:48.436 --> 00:24:51.616
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You figured out kind of where those thorns, what's the chip on the shoulder.
00:24:52.016 --> 00:24:53.936
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You talked about the case, see what the memory is.
00:24:54.876 --> 00:24:56.256
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>See if they want to blame anybody.
00:24:56.276 --> 00:25:03.696
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>OK, now you're going to have to do more work with them to prepare them for deposition.
00:25:05.416 --> 00:25:06.856
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Maybe I'm involved, maybe I'm not.
00:25:06.856 --> 00:25:08.096
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Doesn't really matter.
00:25:08.896 --> 00:25:11.416
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>But the key is on this initial meeting, right?
00:25:11.896 --> 00:25:18.536
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You've got to walk out of there with their commitment to you and the process.
00:25:21.096 --> 00:25:24.296
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And you need to say, listen, everything is going to be OK.
00:25:26.056 --> 00:25:28.296
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You've addressed their illogical thoughts.
00:25:29.516 --> 00:25:30.616
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They're not going to prison.
00:25:31.176 --> 00:25:33.496
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They're not losing their jobs and things like that, right?
00:25:33.956 --> 00:25:36.796
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They're not getting their car or their house repossessed.
00:25:36.816 --> 00:25:38.076
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I've heard all these things, by the way.
00:25:39.276 --> 00:25:40.176
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>It's going to be OK.
00:25:42.856 --> 00:25:46.236
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And I care about you.
00:25:46.876 --> 00:25:48.756
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I care about you as a person.
00:25:48.776 --> 00:25:50.396
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Yes, I care about your testimony.
00:25:50.416 --> 00:25:51.516
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I care about this case.
00:25:51.536 --> 00:25:52.776
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I want to win this case.
00:25:53.156 --> 00:25:55.196
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Or I want to get this case resolved fairly.
00:25:57.356 --> 00:26:02.396
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>But right next to that, simultaneously, I care about you as a human being.
00:26:03.516 --> 00:26:05.836
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And I don't want you losing sleep over this.
00:26:05.856 --> 00:26:07.276
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I don't want you stressing over this.
00:26:07.296 --> 00:26:08.576
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And by the way, here's my card.
00:26:09.316 --> 00:26:10.776
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>If you're having issues, call me.
00:26:16.516 --> 00:26:17.896
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They need to know you care.
00:26:19.956 --> 00:26:22.976
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And get their commitment to meeting with you going forward.
00:26:22.996 --> 00:26:27.336
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Now, going forward, you're probably going to get more case specific, right?
00:26:28.136 --> 00:26:36.596
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Getting into the medical record, the timeline of events, who else is saying what, OK?
00:26:36.956 --> 00:26:40.676
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And you're going to get in the weeds about the case on your subsequent sessions.
00:26:40.916 --> 00:26:44.356
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>By how you handle the first one, right?
00:26:44.376 --> 00:26:49.816
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>This first session that you have with the LPN, the nursing assistant, whoever.
00:26:50.636 --> 00:26:54.036
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Again, kind of like that basic level of nursing.
00:26:55.756 --> 00:27:02.356
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>How you start that relationship is going to be crucial to how they perform at the deposition.
00:27:04.956 --> 00:27:05.896
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>How you start that.
00:27:06.776 --> 00:27:09.996
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And I've seen some attorneys handle this really, really well.
00:27:11.796 --> 00:27:17.736
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I've seen others skip steps one through five and jump right into the medical record.
00:27:17.856 --> 00:27:22.956
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And then what you do is you scare the living shit out of your witness.
00:27:24.836 --> 00:27:28.216
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Or, or even worse, you piss them off.
00:27:30.996 --> 00:27:31.636
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You piss them off.
00:27:31.656 --> 00:27:33.696
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Because they don't think you care.
00:27:36.276 --> 00:27:43.536
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>If you want to get the most out of these witnesses, it's really important that you connect with them.
00:27:44.716 --> 00:27:45.156
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>All right?
00:27:45.316 --> 00:27:46.816
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>On all those things that we talked about.
00:27:48.936 --> 00:27:49.216
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>So.
00:27:51.936 --> 00:27:52.356
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>All right.
00:27:52.796 --> 00:28:02.056
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>In our subsequent podcast on this, we'll go over, you know, you know, how to deal with, you know, regular, you know, regular, you know, kind of more your mid level nurses.
00:28:02.576 --> 00:28:06.096
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>We'll talk about nurse practitioners and physician assistants.
00:28:06.216 --> 00:28:09.476
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>There's some challenges there with nurse practitioners and physician assistants.
00:28:09.496 --> 00:28:10.116
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They're dangerous.
00:28:10.876 --> 00:28:13.176
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They know enough to be dangerous, but they're not physicians.
00:28:14.136 --> 00:28:17.556
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And so, you know, those folks, they got to know when to punt the ball.
00:28:18.696 --> 00:28:19.996
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And say, I'm not a physician.
00:28:20.016 --> 00:28:21.176
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You have to ask a physician.
00:28:21.656 --> 00:28:26.536
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>The problem is they're like two inches away from being a physician.
00:28:28.716 --> 00:28:31.816
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And they get a lot of key questions.
00:28:32.036 --> 00:28:39.636
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And you have to work with them to determine what they should really be answering versus what they should be punting to a physician.
00:28:39.796 --> 00:28:40.776
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>That's always interesting.
00:28:40.796 --> 00:28:44.716
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And then in other episodes, we'll get into different types of physicians.
00:28:48.056 --> 00:28:54.176
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I mean, working with a cardiothoracic surgeon versus a radiologist is very, very different.
00:28:56.296 --> 00:28:57.296
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Very different.
00:28:57.316 --> 00:29:01.436
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Working with a cardiologist versus a pathologist.
00:29:03.756 --> 00:29:05.256
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Very, very different.
00:29:05.416 --> 00:29:05.756
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Right.
00:29:06.756 --> 00:29:10.256
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And then surgeons versus non-surgeon physicians.
00:29:10.316 --> 00:29:15.416
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>There's a big difference there in personality styles and challenges.
00:29:15.516 --> 00:29:15.856
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Right.
00:29:16.376 --> 00:29:17.896
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Got a lot of pros and cons there.
00:29:18.436 --> 00:29:19.356
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>So we'll talk about that.
00:29:19.916 --> 00:29:24.236
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>But I thought starting here would be something interesting.
00:29:24.256 --> 00:29:28.976
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Give you guys some tools on how to talk to these folks, because you're going to need them.
00:29:28.996 --> 00:29:30.156
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You're going to need them.
00:29:30.176 --> 00:29:33.096
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You're going to need them to perform well at that position.
00:29:33.116 --> 00:29:35.696
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And that's going to have a big impact on the case.
00:29:35.716 --> 00:29:36.996
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I think the last thing that you want.
00:29:37.016 --> 00:29:38.376
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And by the way, I get a lot of phone calls.
00:29:40.116 --> 00:29:41.276
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>It's the worst phone call.
00:29:42.436 --> 00:29:46.576
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Because the phone calls typically, I have this really bad med mal case.
00:29:48.756 --> 00:29:51.096
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Mediation failed, settlement failed.
00:29:52.936 --> 00:29:54.456
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Looks like we're going to trial.
00:29:55.336 --> 00:30:01.316
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And I've got these two or three nursing, you know, they're LPNs, they're lower level nurses.
00:30:02.496 --> 00:30:04.056
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And boy, their depth stunk.
00:30:05.536 --> 00:30:09.336
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And now they're really angry, because the deposition process was so bad.
00:30:09.356 --> 00:30:11.036
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They felt like they weren't prepared.
00:30:11.056 --> 00:30:13.716
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They felt like they were being attacked.
00:30:14.636 --> 00:30:16.916
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>They feel like they're being blamed for all this.
00:30:17.916 --> 00:30:21.176
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And then I'm walking, then I'm walking into a hornet's nest.
00:30:22.796 --> 00:30:24.536
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>That's not the way to do this.
00:30:24.896 --> 00:30:28.516
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Unfortunately, I get that call all too frequently.
00:30:31.336 --> 00:30:40.676
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Because clients, not all of them, but a lot of them, don't see the value in prevention.
00:30:41.896 --> 00:30:43.156
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>We can prevent all this.
00:30:43.516 --> 00:30:51.456
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>So some of the things I just told you in this podcast episode, Defense Council, you can prevent a lot of messes if you follow, if you do what I say.
00:30:51.856 --> 00:30:54.256
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You can prevent a lot of headaches going forward.
00:30:55.016 --> 00:30:59.756
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Sometimes, to go to higher exposure case, I can come in, I can help you with this.
00:31:00.436 --> 00:31:01.036
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>I can help you.
00:31:01.056 --> 00:31:03.076
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And as a team, right?
00:31:03.876 --> 00:31:10.636
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Because the other thing that's going to happen, Defense Council, is once you get into the subsequent meetings, you're going to find some issues that are going to trigger these witnesses.
00:31:11.796 --> 00:31:15.316
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And are you going to be able to help them control their emotions?
00:31:16.936 --> 00:31:17.316
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Maybe.
00:31:17.336 --> 00:31:19.276
<v SPEAKER_2>I know I can.
00:31:19.536 --> 00:31:20.136
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>That's what I do.
00:31:28.636 --> 00:31:29.779
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Well, I think this was a good episode.
00:31:30.939 --> 00:31:37.219
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>And 2024, I want everybody to have a fantastic year.
00:31:38.979 --> 00:31:46.619
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You know, what I've learned is that no year's gonna be perfect, you're gonna have your hiccups during the year, folks.
00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:49.839
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>But you gotta ert something good today.
00:31:50.239 --> 00:31:52.299
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Yeah, it's not gonna get easier.
00:31:53.779 --> 00:31:57.859
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>You've gotta learn how to handle hard better.
00:31:57.879 --> 00:32:00.319
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Let me say that again.
00:32:00.699 --> 00:32:02.859
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>It's not getting any easier.
00:32:04.299 --> 00:32:05.979
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>There is no easy street.
00:32:07.099 --> 00:32:07.599
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Okay?
00:32:08.359 --> 00:32:09.479
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>It's gonna be hard.
00:32:11.579 --> 00:32:16.239
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>Learn how to handle hard better.
00:32:21.755 --> 00:32:30.135
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>That is going to require some self-reflection, some self-growth and some work on your part.
00:32:31.695 --> 00:32:36.255
<Bill Kanasky, Jr., Ph.D.>All right, Litigation Psychology Podcast, Bill Kanasky, we will see you next time.